Schall Tank Platoon


Adds different classes and tiers of tanks in-par with power armors, having vehicle equipment grid. Aims to fill the gaps the vanilla game should have. Not overhaul nor OP. Vanilla oriented and balanced. (Locale: English, Deutsch, 正體中文, 简体中文, Русский, Português Brasileiro, Español)

6 months ago
0.16 - 1.1
92186

g [Responded] Super heavy tanks

7 months ago
(updated 7 months ago)

I really love the new tanks, especially the idea of a super-heavy tank... but the super-heavies' dreadful turret traverse speed makes it basically unviable. When you are in middle of a horde of biters (what is inevitable if you are riding a painfully slow super-heavy tank) or even running from them, the turret will try to turn to them before firing, the thing is, it is EXTREMELY slow, and will end up not firing at all - because you will be moving, or the biter that you was aiming at is already dead. Once I had the turret turning a whole 180º when the enemy was right in front of me. Why? Because it was trying to shoot at the biters on the sides, that were already dead when it finally turned, while the worms that were really doing damage were at the front. I almost lost my very expensive tank there.... Its ok to be slow, but please, not THAT slow.

7 months ago
(updated 7 months ago)

This question is raised several times already, and I have detailed answers to them. One of those could be found here, please read it first before any further comments.

Here I will not repeat every point already mentioned in the above-stated thread, but just only a few keypoints:
I am not sure how you define a super-heavy tank. A super sci-fi hi-tech tank that could wipe out the entire country? No! My super-heavy tank is taking reference of the WWII one: PzKpfw VIII "Maus". It is the only super-heavy tank EVER fought on the battlefield.
Like how the German Army was using it, it is designed to be a "breakthrough tank". It will punch holes in the enemy defence, and defeat the toughest enemy units (tanks). Its flank and the lesser enemy units will be handled by the accompanying tanks (the heavy tanks, medium tanks, and mechanized infantry, etc).
In game terms, my super-heavy tank is supposed to be fighting the behemoths, or even tougher alien units from many mods.

So, if you assume my super-heavy tank can face the toughest enemy and clear the swarms at the same time, like in some sci-fi tank? No, it is not the tank you wanted. It is NOT supposed to be fighting the whole enemy army alone.

Specifically, please read carefully my reply about turret rotation motion. A workaround tactics (used by WWII tank commanders, but also work in game) is also mentioned there.

Not to say, the vehicle grid allows you to install Personal Laser Defence or some modded defence equipment (like my gun pods), which will deal with the incoming swarms. PzKpfw VIII "Maus" did not have such similar things to defend itself from enemy infantry or small vehicles. My super-heavy tank is already much more versatile and flexible than "Maus".

7 months ago

I understand your point, but there is one important issue: You don't have support units in this game, at least not on single player.

AI controlled units from other mods have derpy AI that isn't really capable of tactic positioning, and you can't even select what targets they prioritize.

There is no way of dealing with the "small fry", so if you approach a biter nest with this tank you will be quickly overwhelmed, the acid spits will make your slow tank even slower forcing you to stay on top of several big/behemoth worms acid puddles and die quickly.

Usual tactics like circling and retreating behind a wall of turrets (and obviously hit-and-run) don't work because of the low mobility, and the high health pool don't make too much of a difference in the late game, as damage is more exponencial (swarms of bigger biters, lots of spiters and big/behemoth worms that leave acid puddles on the ground that does accumulative damage). These are basically the same problems with the vanila tank, that becomes unviable roughly at the same point.

In short, these "super-heavies" aren't really more useful than the vanila tank. Basically a massive waste of resources.

The more powerful canon is good but the explosion radius isn't that much bigger, so it's kinda redundant except if you have modded ultra biters, while the machine gun is pretty much useless with such a slow turret.

The gun pod mod do help but that's not a good solution. It increases even more the cost of this already very expensive tank, and it can basically make any vehicle OP. Also "overmodding" is not a good thing. All I wanted was tanks that were more useful in the mid-late game, and what I expected from the super-heavies was massive firepower and resistance, but for that I need the gunpod mod and subsequently your turret mod. I don't like some of the changes these mods make and they increase the loading time of my game, but I still need to have them just so I can use tanks.

So, the armor is not really helpful and the weapons are borderline useless, why would I use a super-heavy tank then? A simple heavy tank has usable firepower and more mobility, and even a combat-focused power armor is better.

My suggestion is, if you don't want to change the turret traverse speed, increase the range and damage radius of the main guns, and give it a flamethrower with its own traverse speed, separated from the canon and machine gun, and a "superheavy armor" modifier that reduce the physical damage received by a percentage, negates acid slowdown and negates/massively reduces damage by acid pudles or something like that. The flamethrower will give a mean to fight the hordes, but will have short range and medium damage. With this it will be like a moving bunker, one of the objectives of the historical, super-heavy german tanks, while being unique and useful in-game and not a "sic-fi tank rambo".

7 months ago
(updated 7 months ago)

Super-heavy tank is good if you have teammates (in MP) or have patience to deploy turrets (in SP) on the flank before assaulting enemy spawners.
In combat, I only drive in a a line (only forward/backward), so I will not roll over friendly players or turrets, or stop unexpectedly at rocks or coasts. This applies to every combat in ANY tanks, except for perhaps light tank (where I drive it to do "solo combat dance" to pick the less-defended worms and spawners, by circling outside enemy cluster.) I (specifically my tank) got the attention from most enemies, so my flank turrets are relatively safe. The enemies keep trying to reach my tank front, so I do not ever have to turn to shoot.
If you neither like pre-deploying flank turrets nor put in PLDs/gun pods, there are still grenades, land mines and combat robots around. These are so many ways to deal with the swarms ("small flies") effectively. I cannot help, if you really hate or forget them all.
You mentioned a combat-focused power armor, so why not have that at the same time? I love to take out all energy shields and exoskeletons and fill in with PLDs (or just an additional dedicated power armor for this purpose), wear it and ride the tank. They offer extra firepower and is especially well against the incoming swarms.

Some suggestions would not work. You wanted a flamethrower (or any weapons) that have its own traverse speed? No, the game does not allow that. All weapons are sharing the same tank turret and pointing at the same direction. Otherwise, I would have already implemented it already, as real-world tank machine guns are not just co-axial, but also independently controlled ones by the commander or loader.
A super-heavy tank with flamethrower? In logical sense, the fuel tank will be a big and obvious target for a big boom, I am sure the enemies will appreciate the designer who did that. The armour on super-heavy tank will not have enough thickness on the flank or rear, to prevent the enemies from exploiting this fact to light up such expensive fireworks. That is why historical flamethrower tanks were mostly medium tanks: just enough space to fit in enough fuel, and still low cost enough for such expendable uses.

I do not like "overmodding" too. This is why I do not like packing more weapons (flamethrower, rocket launcher, etc) onto the same vehicle, especially when such choice is logically questionable. Real-world is a good reference for such decisions. Having a flamethrower on the tank? The tank cannon will be smaller, or just have to be removed. One cannot have everything on the same vehicle, otherwise it is a cheating "super tank".
This relates to another point, where I do not like unbalanced neither (especially against too OP.) This is why I distribute the advantages into different tank classes and ALWAYS balance them with disadvantages. There is no single tank class that will suit every playstyle, everyone has his own sweetspot. If you want maneuverability, go for the lighter ones. If you want protection and/or firepower, go for the heavier ones. This is exactly why I have intermediate tank classes, instead of just two extreme tank classes. In early-mid game, light tank is well enough for all purposes. In less tense (say, non-Death world) game, I love to drive medium tank around to clear small spawner cluster. In single player game, I drive heavy tank for frontal assault against pure-vanilla alien units.

There are already so many ways to deal with the swarms, as mentioned in first paragraph. Only the tougher aliens (behemoth or modded ones) remain to be the problem, and the super-heavy tank is a solution to them.
If your enemies are just vanilla, and you found yourself mostly facing swarms of behemoths only, then perhaps you should try heavy tank or even just medium tank. They already have the maneuverability you want.
Here I take analogy of (Victorian time) navies. When I am facing a weak navy with loads of patrol boats only, sending my dreadnoughts is clearly not an effective way. Sending my frigates or even cruisers are well enough. Dreadnoughts exist does not mean they should be used in every naval encounter.

Maybe I will buff the 128 mm (and 88 mm) gun range mildly, as introduction of Behemoth Worm (range 48) has really broken the balance. (Big Worm had the longest range of 38 pre-0.17.) Other than that, further buffs to super-heavy tanks will not be considered. You are requesting a lot of buffs on super-heavy tank, which is closer to take over the role of existing heavy tank. This is undesirable to the tank class balance. So many buffs must be offset by big nerfs, and it cannot be solely relying on an expensive cost without other downsides. (Mine is "super-heavy tank", not "super tank".)
I really try to avoid the kind of thinking: "Oh, the super-heavy is simply superior in most aspects, and still fast enough to drive. So just skip all those intermediates."

6 months ago

I have experienced similar issues with the super heavy tank, and would like to recommend a solution:
Limit the traversal angle of the turret, to maybe 45 degrees either way. I'm not sure if this is possible, (and if it isn't then this is redundant), but my experience with the super-heavy-tank was watching the turret swivel, in the middle of the battle, to shoot a single biter which i fired at some time ago, and because of how Factorio works, the tank won't 'give up' on the old target, meaning that no matter how useless it is, it will shoot at the enemy, even it takes 5 minutes (this is irrelevant in the base game, as the traversal speeds are quick enough). This means that you can't fire any weapon, unless it is already lined up, as if you tell the gun to fire anywhere else, then by the time it is pointing at the target, you don't want to shoot it anymore.
I appreciate your reluctance to increase the turret turn rate, and think it would be an interesting limitation, if I didn't spend my whole time pointing the turret at the target manually by turning the tank, so that it can shoot, and I can pick a new target.
Also with the current turn-rate, there is no reason why you would want to shoot a target behind you, as you might as well turn the whole tank to face the target, or drive off, and come back later.

This also works in the use case you described, as even in those situations, pointing the gun at a single biter, which then runs behind the tank results in a multi-minute turret-turning exercise, until the biter dies, at which point the turret has to turn back.

6 months ago

Unless you are talking about turretless tank (e.g., Swedish tank Stridsvagn 103) or most tank destroyers (e.g., Marder II), any tanks with turrets should in principle be able to rotate 360 degrees. The German super-heavy tank Maus can perform 360 degrees turret rotation, although not practically wise to do so.
But most importantly, the game does NOT support limiting the turret angle. Otherwise, I would have implemented tank destroyers in the first place.

This is why I have already emphasized a few times: the super-heavy tank is NOT for everyone. It requires skills to fight in it effectively. It requires knowledge to the game mechanics on vehicle turret rotation. It is meant to fight enemies head-on. It is NOT meant to fight enemies who will sneak and flank. It is meant to punch a hole in toughest enemy defense. It is NOT meant to be a super-toy to solo the swarms.

In some multiplayer tank games (namely "World of Tanks"...), it is a completely legit tactics, that players of a light tank (possibly also for medium tank) to circle around those deadly heavy tanks. Those Soviet IS or KV tanks can easily one-shot my light tank, but it is perfectly possible for me to avoid their gun tips if I catch one of them 1v1 and drive carefully. My tank autocannon may not be enough to deal enough damage, but I can target their weak points (e.g., tracks, engines), buying precious time for friendly units (e.g., artillery, tank destroyers that are excellent versus sitting ducks) to deal the finishing blows. And this tactics is not just in game, but a valid tactics in the real-world as well, historically and realistically.
Now it just biters' turn to try this tactics, yet they are not even smart enough to evade your gun tip. The "dumb" AI pathing do not care about your orientation.

If you believe there should be some way to cancel the turret turning, then please go request on official forum.
This is not a sufficient reason for the huge buff in the super-heavy tank (essentially what current heavy tank is already doing).

Honestly, I do not understand why users keep insisting me to buff the mobility of super-heavy tank... Super-heavy tank is not meant to be replacing heavy tank. Its use is situational. The heavy tank is always there if more mobility is what the players want, and more flexible if enemies can come from behind.

6 months ago

Thanks for the response.
I wondered whether it would be possible, Factorio is weirdly limiting as soon as you go outside of a very narrow set of use cases.

To be clear, I entirely approve of the low mobility of the super-heavy tank, it makes it very niche, but still very good in particular cases. The reason for my comment was that I found it was limited due to the game, not just its basic properties, notably that the game's targeting system is built for fast vehicles, so is very annoying for this use case.

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your decisions, the fact that in multiplayer, it can be overwhelmed as it can, so needs to be part of a group, creates an interesting dynamic, which the base game fails to create on every front (all defences might as well use lasers, all attack is either artillery or personal laser defences, etc.).
The creation of a situation where tactics are relevant, and different for different tools, is excellent.

I also know that any tank with a turret can do 360 degrees, that was only a suggestion to try and reduce the impact of Factorio's poor aiming system, and I would have recommended it being optional anyway.

6 months ago

Glad you can understand and agree with my reasons.
Not everyone is like you, who can distinguish between super-heavy tank and super tank.
In the old time (0.16 or 0.17?) there was an user trying to convince me my tanks are too slow and need big buffs. At that time, I did not know how to explain we were talking about the two different concepts. So in above replies of this thread, I may have typed redundant text just to ensure discussing about the same concept, same term.

I guess the biggest problem faced by the players of this mod, is that it requires different mindset when fighting in super-heavy tank. Now each super-heavy tank shot is precious, so have to look for where to place the shot, and possibly orient the tank chassis first to optimize each firing process.
One can no longer just hold the space bar (fire key) to spam cannon shells over approximate targeting area, which has been working for almost all vanilla weapons. (Atomic bomb could be the only exception?) Perhaps most users are already too used to that, thus find it hard to change such habit.

Yes, the vanilla combat system is too relying on laser weapons. Their "ammo" are either almost free (from abundance of uranium with Kovarex) to entirely free (from portable fusion reactor). 0.17 had further reduced the energy consumption of PLD to outrageously low level, that one portable fusion reactor can feed 10 PLDs. There are no comparable alternatives. The vanilla tank (no grid so no shields) is also too weak in comparison.
I wonder how many players can capture resources from aliens in vanilla game, without using extensive laser turret creep and/or power armour full of PLDs???
This is why vanilla combat is monotonic and utterly boring.
BTW, this is one of the ultimate reasons why I started Factorio modding and created this mod. I want something else instead of spamming lasers again and again.

Game limitation is the ultimate limiting factor. I may revise this mod with new units (tank destroyers) and new balancing, if vehicle attack angle limitation is a thing.
Yet devs are investing much time on the fancy new Spidertron, but is not willing to revise the long-complained combat system. So honestly I do not see this happening at the current rate.

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