Schall Tank Platoon


Adds different classes and tiers of tanks in-par with power armors, having vehicle equipment grid. Aims to fill the gaps the vanilla game should have. Not overhaul nor OP. Vanilla oriented and balanced. (Locale: English, Deutsch, 正體中文, 简体中文, Русский, Português Brasileiro, Español)

6 months ago
0.16 - 1.1
92184

i [Responed] Super-heavy Tank Turret Swivel Speeds and COF. UNUSABLE

1 year, 1 month ago
(updated 1 year, 1 month ago)

Yo,

Thanks for the mod, its really awesome.
Using the super heavy tank is beyond painful, the rotation of the turret and general cone of fire makes combat impossible from what I have seen. It seems to only fire one or two shots with the machine gun before trying to switch targets (lowering sensitivity of my mouse seems to help?). As biters now have virtually no clip box with its allies, it makes the turret constantly rotate to acquire another target, making the weapon entirely unusable. Was the rotation of the turret meant to be impossibly slow? Has this been tested by anyone else? Or is it an issue with only my self?

Please increase turret rotation or COF (is that a thing?).

1 year, 1 month ago

The turret rotation speed is designed to be slow, both for realism and balancing.

For realism, the mass (weight) and length of the turret is proportional to those of the overall tank, as the turret also has similar degree of armour thickness to the body. The moment of inertia in the turret rotation motion is proportional to mass times radius^2 (i.e., ~ m r^2). I am not bringing the whole high-school physics course here. Just saying that the turret rotation drops at a rate higher than what the tank size increases. The slow turret rotation in heavy (and super-heavy) tanks is actual thing.
If you search keywords "turret traverse" (more specific but the same meaning as turret rotation), you can find some data like "Panther Ausf. D" and "Tiger I Ausf. H" could perform a 360-degree rotation in 60 seconds, which was already very fast when compared with Allied tanks! They achieved this 1 rpm speed because the Germans used a hydraulic traverse system, which was very new at the time. (Many tanks can be hand cranked only, think of that speed...) The Maus turret weighted much more than Tiger turret, so its traverse could only be much worse than that.
Yet, I do not come to such "extreme realism" as to also tune down the medium tank to 1 rpm. I do not touch medium tanks, but others should be somewhat proportional to it.

And for tactical aspect of realism. Turret traverse (rotation) is the real weakness of heavier tanks. The Allied tanks were generally not as capable as German tanks in front-to-front tank combats. So they have overcome this by trying to encircle and attacking from the sides, which was proved to be quite successful. (Taking this into gameplay, this is how medium/heavy tanks can easily challenge a super-heavy tank, if the opponent is not experienced enough.)
The problem of slow turret traverse was known to the WWII tank commanders. So they developed a special move, that was taking the advantage of tank tracks can actually go into opposite direction, rotating the tank chassis itself. Therefore, it greatly reduces the turret rotation required, hence pointing the tank cannon to its targets much faster. (Taking this into gameplay, rotate you tank with A or D key towards the target will shorten the wait duration.)

For balancing concerns, super-heavy tanks must have slower turret rotation (and other speeds too) than heavy tanks. Otherwise, why players still need to drive medium or heavy tanks? Why don't that just take only super-heavy tanks?
By design (both in real-world and by me), a tank group has the strongest (heaviest) tanks handling the front. The wings and flanks are left for the accompanying more mobile (lighter) tanks to handle. Super-heavy tanks are not supposed to be facing enemies from many directions.

As I have mentioned in FAQ about tank roles, super-heavy tank is a poor choice for single player in "open" area. It is not a tank for you to circling around and harassing the enemies. It is for frontal assault. If you want to fight with a super-heavy tank in single player, it is almost necessary to deploy your battlefield carefully. Either you fight in a corridor that no one comes behind you, or deploy turrets on two sides to protect your flanks. Or if you have some AI tanks mods, use them to accompany you.
If you don't bother to do these kind of preparations, then it is almost certain that you have a more mobile tank driving style. You should switch to lighter classes instead.

PS: The "best" tank class varies greatly to different players and even different situations. For solo game, I feel most comfortable with heavy tank, it has firepower with long enough range while still enough mobility to reverse back to my turret frontline. If I have AI tanks (which are modified medium tanks) mod, then I will go with a super-heavy tank instead.
For MP game, I will switch to light tank, as I love to running around to distract the aliens and clear swarms to support my teammates.

1 year, 1 month ago

Firstly I'd like to say I never expect such a passionate response, glad to see that there is another German tank nut such as myself. I have a 'minor' obsession with the design and use of the Maus Super Heavy, but I digress. Seeing the actual design and general programming aspect from the creator really brings some perspective, and I cant thank you enough.

My error was simply investing everything into a single unit (bad strategy) and hoping that I could overcome numbers without support (again terrible military strategy). I actually used the super heavy inside Ribbon Maze generation, faced hoards with little success, but managed to pull a beaten SuperHeavy out after I decided that shelling my location was a better alternative then admitting defeat.

Using varied support such as AI vehicles is an suggestion that I will take, and I should admit I skipped the FAQ before making the post. Taking your advice, I will change the way I conduct my battlefield, as the way I do things solo just ain't working.

Thanks again, I am actually elated to have an such an explanation rather then being dismissed and will be going back to attempt the new ideas you have given me.

1 year, 1 month ago

You are welcome.
I would not say I am "nut" about German tanks, but rather the (WWII) German tanks interest me most. Their small tanks (PzKpfw I) are similar to those in other armies, but they do have the craziest yet powerful designs (Tiger, Maus). Of course there were many flaws and weakness in practice, but they are most "charming" to me. ;-)

Yup, this mod (like the majority of my other mods) is much more inclined to realism than turkey-shooting approach. So it is not a super-OP tank that you can charge into nests and destroy everything. It is merely the spearhead of a tank group like its historically role. Maybe you can solo a few enemy heavy/medium tanks (behemoths), but definitely not for fighting against hundreds of enemy infantry (biter/spitter swarms).
There are some other mods that provide the OP tanks (or even aircrafts) that you can solo everything, but being OP is really not my cup of tea. Because once I have such OP vehicle, maybe I will be happy massacring for an hour, but then I will feel boring for being unchallenged. Then I will have to seek stronger enemies (from other mods), which is a viscous cycle. This is why OPness (or actually cheating in my understanding) will easily ruin the gameplay experience. This is why balancing is very important to me, especially when I become a modder.

For AI tanks, I would recommend the "partially" compatible mod described on the mod main page. That mod tries to maintain the "slave tanks" in formation (relative position where they first placed) to your commander tank, whenever you are moving, turning or fighting. It is "partial" in the sense that it only supports the vanilla tank (where my medium tanks come from). Assuming you are driving super-heavy tank as the commanding tank, guess they are adequate for your use.
Whatever AI tank mod(s) you are playing with, have fun!

New response