Ultracube seems like a fun idea, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's intentionally designed to piss off the player. Right from the start, there's a number of things that make the experience less fun for no obvious reason.

Why does the player run super slow when holding the cube? This just makes everything take ages for no benefit. Why does the synthesizer require 50MW? This just meant I had to handcraft a load of steam engines to get started. Why does the player only start with one fabricator when almost all recipes would require two or three for even a simple direct insertion build? Why does the boiler have water and steam flipped compared to normal? Why can the player not choose to see the whole tech tree? Dear god, why can the player not get landfill if we're going to be asked for large quantities of water? Why can I not use the loader mod of my choice instead of AAI loaders?

Ultracube feels like a good idea, but even attempting to play it for a single hour is not fun with many things about it that just suck.

It's different, it's not vanilla factorio and is not meant to be. If everything was well recognizable and familiar, there would be no challenge, would there?
The irritating things like walking slower when holding the cube makes it just that more fulfilling when you manage to automate it. The cube is special, you're not meant to hold it.
You do get landfill later on, and a hidden tech tree makes it so much more fun to explore.

Why does the player run super slow when holding the cube?

Don't hold it, automate! The bootstrap base for getting to automation is going to be tiny, you don't need to run that much. You can just handcraft and use the starting machines next to you manually without moving at all for the most part since you barely need any material except what you get for free from the cube.

Why does the synthesizer require 50MW? This just meant I had to handcraft a load of steam engines to get started.

Handcrafting steam engines is a quite trivial task. Also they produce more power than vanilla steam engines and you don't need fuel. But it does mean you need to figure out how to get that much power with this new boiler. It's unique and I enjoyed figuring it out.

Why does the player only start with one fabricator when almost all recipes would require two or three for even a simple direct insertion build?

In vanilla Factorio you start with no assembler. Here you start with advanced equipment and can craft infinite fast belts and much more out of thin air. You already start with plenty and you skip the burner phase and the pre-construction bot era. And getting to the Fabricator research is trivial, just requires a bit of time that you can use to get used to the changes.

Why does the boiler have water and steam flipped compared to normal?

It makes perfect sense. The vanilla boiler has 2 water connections so that you can chain them together. In Ultracube it makes no sense to chain boilers together. You only need 1. It can take 12k water in per second. That the boiler was changed means the dev had plenty of attention to details and thought deeply on why everything was the way it was to make this perfect change.

Why can the player not choose to see the whole tech tree?

So that the future challenges aren't spoiled. I think seeing the whole tech tree is the correct decision for vanilla. But I like not knowing what happens next in Ultracube.

Dear god, why can the player not get landfill if we're going to be asked for large quantities of water?

You'll get landfill soonish.

Why can I not use the loader mod of my choice instead of AAI loaders?

Because the mod removes a lot of vanilla tech, items and recipes so every mod that introduces entities needs to be made compatible. You can request that your favorite loader mod is made compatible.

Ultracube feels like a good idea, but even attempting to play it for a single hour is not fun with many things about it that just suck.

It's a genius idea, and it's really enjoyable for hours and hours and hours! :D

I can assure you I didn't design anything with the intention of frustrating the player. Rather I wanted to surprise them, guide them, reward them, and maybe share a little joke with them now and then.

For example, the cube makes you move slower because it's thematic, it's kind of funny to deal with, and it hints to the player that you should be designing automation for it instead of carrying it around. I do recommend the far reach mod though if you find it annoying.

Qon's post echoes a lot of thoughts I had. For what it's worth, most of the things you mentioned have been received positively by others as far as I know.

Don't hold it, automate! The bootstrap base for getting to automation is going to be tiny, you don't need to run that much. You can just handcraft and use the starting machines next to you manually without moving at all for the most part since you barely need any material except what you get for free from the cube.

I wanted to automate, but that involved getting some rare metals and therefore running to the nearest rare metal patch to set some up, and it felt absolutely terrible. The player can't automate using the cube without running around setting up power, rare metals, stone, etc so it feels weird to punish them with a horrifically slow run rate for doing something that they are forced to do. Getting the material for free from the cube involves, y'know, holding it. Fundamentally the player already doesn't want to do things manually so it seems like there's no need to add extra punishment in this case.

Handcrafting steam engines is a quite trivial task. Also they produce more power than vanilla steam engines and you don't need fuel. But it does mean you need to figure out how to get that much power with this new boiler. It's unique and I enjoyed figuring it out.

It is a trivial task. In fact, one would say that it's tremendously boring to sit there whilst handcrafting 40 steam engines. You don't even have a burner base to maintain whilst doing this. Handcrafting two steam engines is a considerably more fun experience than handcrafting 40 of them.

In vanilla Factorio you start with no assembler. Here you start with advanced equipment and can craft infinite fast belts and much more out of thin air. You already start with plenty and you skip the burner phase and the pre-construction bot era. And getting to the Fabricator research is trivial, just requires a bit of time that you can use to get used to the changes.

Not having a burner phase is currently a bad thing because a lot of the time the player has nothing to do whilst waiting for handcrafting, which they are doing a lot since there is only one fabricator. I mean, I'm not opposed to starting with no fabricators, but starting with one feels like you're supposed to do something with it, when in reality there's almost nothing you can do with it.

It makes perfect sense. The vanilla boiler has 2 water connections so that you can chain them together. In Ultracube it makes no sense to chain boilers together. You only need 1. It can take 12k water in per second. That the boiler was changed means the dev had plenty of attention to details and thought deeply on why everything was the way it was to make this perfect change.

This logic feels deeply weird. The original vanilla motivation for the way around the boiler was doesn't apply, I agree. But there is the motivation that you already know exactly what way the player is expecting the boiler to be, which is the vanilla way around. Meanwhile there doesn't seem to be any motivation for changing it. So switching it up doesn't seem to achieve any purpose except annoying the player when they find out they put it the wrong way around.

So that the future challenges aren't spoiled. I think seeing the whole tech tree is the correct decision for vanilla. But I like not knowing what happens next in Ultracube.

I don't mind if other people want to play that way, but from past experience, not seeing the whole tech tree just means you end up going down the wrong path and losing time. For example, I didn't need to waste time researching the green science pack only to not find a landfill science, which was the only thing I wanted. This is the kind of thing that could be an option but should not be mandatory.

You'll get landfill soonish.

The player should have landfill when we're being asked for 12kps of water, which is as soon as we're being asked to automate the Ultracube. After that is too late and the only question is how much too late. But it would be a lot less aggravating if the player could actually see what to do to get landfill instead of just vaguely researching in hopes of finding it somewhere.

Because the mod removes a lot of vanilla tech, items and recipes so every mod that introduces entities needs to be made compatible. You can request that your favorite loader mod is made compatible.

This makes some sense but is presented in the total opposite way to the user, since Ultracube depends on AAI Loaders, it feels like a statement by the author that this is the only permitted loader mod since you can't run Ultracube without it and nobody wants to run two loader mods. I'm using Loader Redux which seems like the most popular loader mod by some margin currently.

I wanted to automate, but that involved getting some rare metals and therefore running to the nearest rare metal patch to set some up, and it felt absolutely terrible. The player can't automate using the cube without running around setting up power, rare metals, stone, etc so it feels weird to punish them with a horrifically slow run rate for doing something that they are forced to do.

You can craft 2k basic material units, drop the cube, run the 50 tiles once, while handcrafting and plonk down the miners. Then run back with belts and power lines. It's not far to the starting patch or starting water and after you have brought them to the same location you don't have to run again for a long time.
I walked with the cube because the distance wasn't worth making a fuss about when I'm letting the ores come to me by belt after that.

one would say that it's tremendously boring to sit there whilst handcrafting 40 steam engines.

You aren't forced to wait until you have all 40 steam engines before you set up the power plant. The synthesizer works on a handful of engines as well, just slower. You can use the synth and labs while hand crafting more steam engines (from buffered up basic matter units) and then ramp up the speed. No one is forcing you to make a late game power plant as the first step. It's one of the things you may consider and figure out which path forward is most rewarding to you.

Not having a burner phase is currently a bad thing because a lot of the time the player has nothing to do whilst waiting for handcrafting, which they are doing a lot since there is only one fabricator.

They can manually operate the synth for the first cards while handcrafting.

But there is the motivation that you already know exactly what way the player is expecting the boiler to be, which is the vanilla way around. Meanwhile there doesn't seem to be any motivation for changing it. So switching it up doesn't seem to achieve any purpose except annoying the player when they find out they put it the wrong way around.

The vanilla way to use it is wrong. If you are annoyed that things are not same as vanilla then play vanilla. The point of the mod is to introduce changes. But it isn't a change for changes sake. If you get annoyed that you placed down the boiler and immediately notice that the inputs and outputs are swapped then why are you playing a mod? It makes no sense to be annoyed that things are changed, you lost 1 second placing it down and mining it again. But your plan to place it down in a vanilla configuration wasn't going to work anyways, better to notice it now than later after you have built your whole powerplant. This is one of your first clues to pay attention to that things work differently.
And if you were annoyed that your standard vanilla layout wasn't working because you didn't immediately see the swapped steam and water ports and built a complete vanilla boiler change, then sure you might have to redo a lot more and that can be frustrating. But even if the ports weren't swapped it wouldn't work anyways since you only have 1 cube as fuel. So not flipping isn't making it easier. Flipping makes chaining water through boilers impossible, it is a clue to how this new puzzle works. This is a change that helps players start imagining power plant design from scratch without getting stuck by influence in old patterns. So the change is helpful and useful. That is the purpose.

For example, I didn't need to waste time researching the green science pack only to not find a landfill science, which was the only thing I wanted. This is the kind of thing that could be an option but should not be mandatory.

Green science card is mandatory, you can't go down the wrong path. Same with 3rd card. The cards after 3rd card are not strictly ordered. But I don't think you lose much time just unlocking both, you will spend time configuring combinators to not deadlock your factory anyways. Maybe it could be an option, but you should make sub-optimal decisions and designs and later make better ones with new tech. The path is the goal, if you want to speedrun then do that the second run when you have learned what the mod is about.

The player should have landfill when we're being asked for 12kps of water, which is as soon as we're being asked to automate the Ultracube. After that is too late and the only question is how much too late.

Also it's not hard to place down a dozen pumps without landfill. You really don't need landfill for this little water. If you needed a hundred off shore pumps then the argument makes sense, but you don't so the argument doesn't.

This makes some sense but is presented in the total opposite way to the user, since Ultracube depends on AAI Loaders, it feels like a statement by the author that this is the only permitted loader mod since you can't run Ultracube without it and nobody wants to run two loader mods.

I didn't take it that way. It's just that loaders make a lot of sense for Ultracube since machines produce bulk products in the thousands instead of singular items like in vanilla. AAI loaders are fairly graphically fitting with Krastorio and vanilla graphics. The wonderful title animations couldn't have been included without mandatory requirement. It's just a way to include loaders without having to include them inside the mods own code, because someone else had already made them. No one is forcing you to use them though, the inserters still exist for early game and low throughput applications.

The mod is a bit more difficult than vanilla. That is on purpose. The changes you disagree with are the first hints that things are different and that you need to be comfortable with change and different and harder challenges. If you can't handle these well thought out changes and see them as annoyances instead of guides then maybe you aren't prepared to handle this mod yet. Either prepare yourself or consider trying a mod like "Vanilla/Factorio Extended" (or whatever it's called) that just adds some slightly more involved recipes instead, without any fresh new and radical ideas. There are plenty of mods if you want more of the same Factorio you already know and like. It's not wrong to like standard Factorio, it's a great game. But if you want to continue and you are ready to see the differences as opportunities to figure out new ways to approach the game (instead of annoyances that must have been mistakes by the mod author) then I'm happy to help if you get stuck.

An addition:

Fundamentally the player already doesn't want to do things manually so it seems like there's no need to add extra punishment in this case.

Ultracube is making it much harder to automate. This is pushing the player towards manually carrying the cube to where it's needed since this part is hard relative to standard Factorio automation. There is a risk that players will then continue to manually move the cube past the first science card because of this extra hurdle. The slow walking speed is the extra push towards automation that is probably needed to keep this balance. It's also thematically very fitting. Carrying the ultradense utility cube should be slow, it just feels right even if it is painful until you have automated!

Frankly, it's always heartwrenching to receive this kind of message as a mod developer and I empathize with grandseiken. Regardless of whether I agree with your comments or not, it would have been a lot nicer to write it in the tone of "I couldn't get into this, some feedback". Instead, your message reads as if you were personally insulted by the creation of this mod.

Probably the biggest complaint I have about the walking slowdown is that it actually encourages you to build belts to ride, since it doesn't slow them down.

The comment I agree with is hiding the tech tree is very aggravating to me. I want to target specific techs and not knowing how to get there or how far off they are is a serious dampener on my desire to play. Are loaders around the corner or three tiers away? Who knows? I think a setting to allow us to see the tech tree would be an amazing addition. Turn it off by default, sure, but give us the choice :)

About running with the cube, you can drop it way ahead of you with Z and run while holding F, and you can put it on your hotbar so you can press whatever number to put it in your cursor. Far reach would be a cleaner solution, but with "vanilla" reach you can still run almost as fast as normal by doing this.

I also agree that the tech tree should either have an option to not hide it, or just don't hide it. while I also agree its fun to explore, if I want a specific item then I have to waste a lot of time researching stuff in hopes it will be the one I need, which 75% of the time it has just been a waste of resources.

I love this mod and having a huge blast with it, but the tech tree hidden is quite frustrating to me as well. yes you can just look down the tree and tech straight to whatever pack unlocks the next level, but that's just boring.

Can you give me an example of an item that you hoped for, and some techs that you researched in hopes of obtaining it? I'm confused since the techs still show what items and recipes they unlock, and if you can't see what you want in the tree it just means you definitely need to make the next science card before you can get it.

Loaders and fuel cells are the two obvious ones I might point at for that.

loaders, bots, requester chests, there are several. and to be frank I quit playing. I would also bet money that a very few niche players enjoy this tech tree hiding and I would seriously suggest an option to turn it off for those who dislike it before this mod fails. maybe I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt this mod will go far with the tech tree hidden. The key to automation is knowing what options you have to do said automation. the tech tree hidden, doesn't allow the player to look through the list to see what options you have, and it has caused me to rebuild things more than necessary. rebuilding for upgrades like how PY and Bobs/angels is, is one thing, but having to rebuild because I did not know that X item was an option down the road, is just frustrating. I love complicated mods and packs, I have 80% finished PY, 100% completed SeaBlock, but they don't hide the tech tree and I was able to know ahead that I would have to redo X at X point. Anyhow that's my 2 cents, its your mod you can take it or leave it.

Aren't loaders and fuel cells on the mandatory straight line upgrade path anyways? There is nothing you could have improved really by knowing "what to research", because you don't get any choice. You can see them with the early game 2nd science card, and you can see that you need the 3rd (and also mandatory) science card to unlock it. Seeing the whole tech tree wouldn't have helped you and listing those as examples means that your complaint isn't actually based in reality and not worth considering. You would have quit anyways.

there are several.

so you ran out of ideas and realised that your list was too short so you pretend that your list is actually longer. Sounds like a lie to me.

Edit: fuel cells, as in nuclear fuel cells? Those might be later then...

Even if they are on the guaranteed path it's very frustrating not knowing what's coming up because you never know when to update or rework your build. The builds in this mod are inherently linked, it's just the nature of the mod and that's OK. But it kills me inside when I update a build only to have the next tech unlock something that completely changes it and I would've just waited an extra research or two before updating if I had known what was coming.

I get that some people want it hidden, that's why I suggested an option and keeping the default behavior as keeping it hidden. But why are you so against giving people the choice?

I haven't said I'm "so against giving people choice". In fact, I said the opposite "maybe it could be an option" after saying that I enjoy it for this mod and that the ones who complain use faulty arguments.

This thread is by a person that started whining about things being different in a total overhaul mod. And OP also whined about early game unlocks not being visible immediately because of "wasted time unlocking things" when that was a total lie.

I'm against people lying about why they want too see the entire tech tree. If you mention land fill and loaders then there's no point in listening to you, you aren't here to improve the mod anyways.

If you just state that you like reading through the tech tree from the beginning and don't mention tech tree dead ends that don't exist then I'm more inclined to believe you actually mean what you say. Honesty works, don't make shit up.

I'm not the dev of this wonderful mod though so why do you care about if I tell you no or not?

Qon: I don't have to list items. I was trying to keep my response short. I'm sorry YOU don't like it. unless your the mod author though I really don't care what you think. there is a massive list of items that people tend to look ahead, do you seriously expect me to list them all on a forum ? not happening. my post was simple thoughts on a mod that I feel would improve it based on my 7,000 hours of playtime in factorio. NO other mod that I know of hides the tech tree for good reasons. I don't agree with 99% of what the OP posted, but I do agree we players should have a choice of to not hide the tech tree. the biggest turn off for me was not being able to see the path to a lot of robot stuff. several items like roboports, flying robot frames, elect motors, the bot techs themselves don't even unlock red or yellow boxes (that would have been nice to know AHEAD of time). I rush straight to robots in any playthrough, and in this mod I have ZERO clue what to even think to research to get to them because so much has changed (I'm not against change) that the usual way to get to the stuff is not the way in this overhaul. that's fine. but when I hit the crossroads after blue tech cards where there is 2 that I could research, I have no idea which one will take me down the path I want. do I end up wasting time researching the first one to find out after oops wrong one? no thank you.

The base game does not hide the tech tree.
Krastorio 2 does not hide the tech tree.
Bobs and angels does not hide the tech tree.
Pyanadons does not hide the tech tree.

gee there seems to be a trend here. Players are used to being able to see the tech tree, and should simply have that choice, and no one should have to defend why.

This thread degenerated fast 😬
Inevitably someone will make an "unhide all techs" mod anyway and everyone can be happy.

the fact this mod changes so much (which it feels very similar to Nullius) is the core reason that the tech tree should either be not hidden or give the player to not hide it. Everything we know about factorio has been turned upside down, and all normal ways of doing things are thrown out the window (which is fine) but in doing so you leave the player absolutely clueless where to go next, and hide the one thing that could tell them. anyhow this will be my last post. I'm not going to waste my time defending my ideas. The mod author ultimately has the choice, but as they say if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck, and more then 1 or 2 people have voiced that the tech tree hiding is not a good idea and my guess is there will be many many more.

Anyhow have a nice day and to the mod author, none of my posts are designed to be anything other than constructive criticism so please only take them that way. I'm not good with words so if I came across in any other way I apologize.

there are several.
I don't have to list items.
there is a massive list
do you seriously expect me to list them all on a forum ? not happening.

There's a lot of deflecting, when you could have just provided examples to answer the question the dev asked...

Can you give me an example of an item that you hoped for, and some techs that you researched in hopes of obtaining it?

I haven't seen you list a single research you wasted your time on obtaining that didn't give you access to the item you were looking for.
And now you list roboports, which are low tech with 3 mandatory science cards. And flying robot frames are just 2 first cards! "elect motors" are not a thing you need for robots.

the bot techs themselves don't even unlock red or yellow boxes (that would have been nice to know AHEAD of time).

Wrong! You can see what researching a regular tech unlocks, that isn't hidden. Please don't lie, thanks. Yes the "construction robotics" don't also unlock logistics chests, but that didn't affect you negativly. You didn't research anything you didn't want to, on your path to the tech for the chests.

You do list some higher tech items that I think come after the alternate path science cards as well, these are ok examples. You don't need many examples, and if you remove the silly low tech examples that don't help your case you would actually make more sense. Just 1 good example (complete with the research path you wish you didn't unlock at all) would be convincing enough for me. But did you actually research any science cards and then decide that you didn't want anything that researching it unlocked?

if I want a specific item then I have to waste a lot of time researching stuff in hopes it will be the one I need, which 75% of the time it has just been a waste of resources.

So did you unlock 4 optional science cards where you actually only wanted what was after 1 of them? Since you must have gone down 4 paths at least to get the 75% figure. The mod doesn't even support that many alternate paths that you can just avoid, since the first 3 cards are mandatory and there are 6 cards in total, with the 6th card being mandatory again I guess. So you researched 4th or 5th card and wish you didn't. Did you just lie about that 75% figure? Because that is the only optional research path split in the game. And so you "wasted" time on that ONCE and 4 prerequisites?

but when I hit the crossroads after blue tech cards where there is 2 that I could research, I have no idea which one will take me down the path I want. do I end up wasting time researching the first one to find out after oops wrong one? no thank you.

This seems valid. But did you really have to exaggerate and make stuff up before finally writing this? How does that help the dev?

The base game does not hide the tech tree. Krastorio 2 does not hide the tech tree. Bobs and angels does not hide the tech tree. Pyanadons does not hide the tech tree.
gee there seems to be a trend here. Players are used to being able to see the tech tree, and should simply have that choice, and no one should have to defend why.

So this mod does something unique. Other mods all being kind of the same thing over and over isn't really an argument, that's just "I don't like change"

(I'm not against change)

Then why argue against this change with "Players are used to being able to see the tech tree, and should simply have that choice, and no one should have to defend why"? You are against change, you show that with your line of argumentation. You contradict yourself.

The main reason I care is indeed that I like browsing the whole tech tree, and often enabling cheat mode to see all the different objects. At least in part to make sure my modpack didn't cause something to break horribly.

Loaders because they show up in most of the menu screensavers, and would make a lot of setups way neater, instead of surrounding those giant machines with 24 inserters and still having downtime. Though stack inserters showed up in T3.

Fuelcells, or whatever the alternative fuel is you can use to make steam, because my buffer of steam tanks is hilariously large and makes the logic more complex.

Robots, logistics chests, and w.e. else, eh, whatever. The game is always more interesting before logistics bots imo, and you start with construction bots.

I just want a tech tree toggle option. The unfolding science kinda reminds me of various idle games, and binding it to science tiers specifically is new, but I can't say I like it.