Hello

I'm playing through your mod and have reached the "Stage 2: Curium" research, where I encountered a small problem. Unlocking this research requires 10,000 HEA packs, but when calculating the resources needed to create that many packs, I came up with a figure of 600 million promethium asteroids, which was quite frustrating. Furthermore, the promethium veins on the allowed planet run out incredibly quickly, ultimately producing one asteroid every 10 seconds.

My subscribers say that to complete this mod, I need to add other mods, which will allow me to obtain thorium from asteroids in fairly large quantities.

Could you tell me how you originally planned to mine the resources needed for this research? Are additional mods required, and which ones, or is there some kind of bug?

You don't need that much promethium. Due to the number of steps in the processing (and semi-looping recipes), using prod modules will reduce the resource cost by orders of magnitude.

Calculated by YAFC-CE: https://imgur.com/a/arTbSRh
No prod: 1.25k prom chunks per science pack
Common prod 3 modules: 58.2 prom chunks per science pack
Legendary prod 3 modules: 9.47 prom chunks per science pack

I completed this mod without other mods (though I have endgame levels of research), so they definitely aren't required.

If we use the common productivity 3 everywhere we can, which I generally use anyway, and productivity of science, to create 10,000 pack we would need about 30 million, which is still a very large number

And what are these "semi-looping recipes" you're talking about?

to create 10,000 pack we would need about 30 million, which is still a very large number

10,000 science pack x 58.2 prom chunks per pack = 582k prom chunks. How did you get 30 million?

And what are these "semi-looping recipes" you're talking about?

The bottleneck in the amount of Isotopes you can make from Thorium cells, when you have low prod, is U238.

9 Th => 1.6 U233 + 0.8 Np 236 + 3.2 Np 237 + side products
Then:
4 U233 + 5 U238 => 3.2 Np 236 + 0.8 Np 237 + side products
4 Np 236 + 5 Np 237 => 1.6 U238 + side products
...so these two recipes somewhat loops.

With larger prods, the bottleneck to science actually becomes U235, which feeds directly to the making of HEU science packs.

Which means I could have done uranium enrichment via Pu 242 (I forgot about this in previous calculations), which further decrease the costs to (again calculated by YAFC-CE):
No prod: 1.25k prom chunks per science pack (no change, 0% of U238 is enriched)
Common prod 3 modules: 22.9 prom chunks per science pack (26% of U238 is enriched)
Legendary prod 3 modules: 0.96 prom chunks per science pack (44% of U238 is enriched)

10,000 science pack x 58.2 prom chunks per pack = 582k prom chunks. How did you get 30 million?

Okay, my fault, I didn't add productivity modules everywhere in the calculations, but even so I can't get 582k, the least I get is 2kk

The bottleneck in the amount of Isotopes you can make from Thorium cells, when you have low prod, is U238.

9 Th => 1.6 U233 + 0.8 Np 236 + 3.2 Np 237 + side products
Then:
4 U233 + 5 U238 => 3.2 Np 236 + 0.8 Np 237 + side products
4 Np 236 + 5 Np 237 => 1.6 U238 + side products
...so these two recipes somewhat loops.

What? The last thing I'm interested in is U238, since I have it in abundance. My biggest bottleneck is A242, A243 and B247, which are also made from these elements. Ultimately, it can only be obtained from Thorium, and therefore from Promethium.

Here, I'll post the full production line for common quality: https://imgur.com/a/Gg2nioZ

What? The last thing I'm interested in is U238, since I have it in abundance. My biggest bottleneck is A242, A243 and B247, which are also made from these elements. Ultimately, it can only be obtained from Thorium, and therefore from Promethium.

In that case, since you are just talking about the HEA science pack components, let's look at how much it alone costs:

Normal recipe is HEA cell + 0.25 Bk247 -> 5 HEA science pack, but we have 100% prod (50% from EMP, 50% from 5 modules), so for one science we need 0.1 HEA cell + 0.025 Bk247

The only source of Bk247 is from HEA-242 cell decay, with normal recipe 4 Am242 + 5 Am243 -> 0.8 Bk247 + side products. With 6 prod mods in the isotope handling cloche, and 2 more prod mods in the centrifuge, we need: 0.025 Bk247 <- 0.01953 HEA cell (60% prod) <- 0.06510 Am242 + 0.08138 Am243.

Adding the 0.1 HEA cell from the HEA science pack recipe, we have 0.11953 HEA cell <- 0.3984 Am242 + 0.4980 Am243.

The only source of Am243 is HEU-233 cell decay, and we have 1.297 U233 + 1.621 U238 -> 0.4980 Am243 + 1.992 Np 236 + 0.4980 Np237 + 0.9961 Pu242.

Similarly, for Am242, the only source is HEP-239 cell decay, and we have 0.3459 Pu239 + 0.4323 Pu242 -> 0.3984 Am242 + side products The requirement of 0.4323 Pu242 can already be satisfied by 0.9961 Pu242 in the product of HEU-233 decay above.

For U233, the only source is TBU-232 cell decay, and we have: 6.080 Th232 -> 1.297 U233 + 0.6485 U235 + 0.6485 Np236 + 2.594 Np237 (Note, this doesn't go though the oxidation step so there's no 1.6x multiplier).

Can this neptunium produce the needed 1.621 U238 and 0.3459 Pu239? Yes. From HEU-233 cell decay we have 1.992 Np 236 + 0.4980 Np237, and from TBU-232 cell decay we have 0.6485 Np236 + 2.594 Np237, for a total of 2.641 Np236 + 3.092 Np237. To make HEN-236 cell that is bottlenecked by Np237, so we have: 2.474 Np236 + 3.092 Np237 -> 1.900 U238 + 0.9499 Pu238 + 0.9499 Pu239 + 3.800 Pu241

So, all we need is 6.080 Th232 to make everything, and that equates to 6.080 Th232 <- 19.00 prom ore (60% prod) <- 271.4 prom chunk slurry (EMP, 100% prod) <- 15.08 prom chunks (cryo plant, 80% prod)

Therefore, the cost of making 10000 HEA packs from Promethium via Thorium is 151k promethium chunks. (The 582k number given above includes the cost of HEU packs and HEP packs. That is a lot more complex and you can refer to the imgur link I sent above for numbers).

Here, I'll post the full production line for common quality: https://imgur.com/a/Gg2nioZ

What? The last thing I'm interested in is U238, since I have it in abundance. My biggest bottleneck is A242, A243 and B247, which are also made from these elements. Ultimately, it can only be obtained from Thorium, and therefore from Promethium.

In that case, since you are just talking about the HEA science pack components, let's look at how much it alone costs:

Normal recipe is HEA cell + 0.25 Bk247 -> 5 HEA science pack, but we have 100% prod (50% from EMP, 50% from 5 modules), so for one science we need 0.1 HEA cell + 0.025 Bk247

The only source of Bk247 is from HEA-242 cell decay, with normal recipe 4 Am242 + 5 Am243 -> 0.8 Bk247 + side products. With 6 prod mods in the isotope handling cloche, and 2 more prod mods in the centrifuge, we need: 0.025 Bk247 <- 0.01953 HEA cell (60% prod) <- 0.06510 Am242 + 0.08138 Am243.

Adding the 0.1 HEA cell from the HEA science pack recipe, we have 0.11953 HEA cell <- 0.3984 Am242 + 0.4980 Am243.

The only source of Am243 is HEU-233 cell decay, and we have 1.297 U233 + 1.621 U238 -> 0.4980 Am243 + 1.992 Np 236 + 0.4980 Np237 + 0.9961 Pu242.

Similarly, for Am242, the only source is HEP-239 cell decay, and we have 0.3459 Pu239 + 0.4323 Pu242 -> 0.3984 Am242 + side products The requirement of 0.4323 Pu242 can already be satisfied by 0.9961 Pu242 in the product of HEU-233 decay above.

For U233, the only source is TBU-232 cell decay, and we have: 6.080 Th232 -> 1.297 U233 + 0.6485 U235 + 0.6485 Np236 + 2.594 Np237 (Note, this doesn't go though the oxidation step so there's no 1.6x multiplier).

Can this neptunium produce the needed 1.621 U238 and 0.3459 Pu239? Yes. From HEU-233 cell decay we have 1.992 Np 236 + 0.4980 Np237, and from TBU-232 cell decay we have 0.6485 Np236 + 2.594 Np237, for a total of 2.641 Np236 + 3.092 Np237. To make HEN-236 cell that is bottlenecked by Np237, so we have: 2.474 Np236 + 3.092 Np237 -> 1.900 U238 + 0.9499 Pu238 + 0.9499 Pu239 + 3.800 Pu241

So, all we need is 6.080 Th232 to make everything, and that equates to 6.080 Th232 <- 19.00 prom ore (60% prod) <- 271.4 prom chunk slurry (EMP, 100% prod) <- 15.08 prom chunks (cryo plant, 80% prod)

Therefore, the cost of making 10000 HEA packs from Promethium via Thorium is 151k promethium chunks. (The 582k number given above includes the cost of HEU packs and HEP packs. That is a lot more complex and you can refer to the imgur link I sent above for numbers. Edit: It's actually 229k not 582k; 592k is if you don't enrich U238 into U235).

Oops I was meant to add "Edit: It's actually 229k not 582k; 592k is if you don't enrich U238 into U235", but I replied instead of edited.

With mining productivity 25+ mining from the vents isn't that big an issue, you're expected to have high numbers on all of your productivity researches. Likewise, you still need to control a large amount of vents; generally I averaged around 25 active promethium vents.

@ParaToxist I tried to reproduce your numbers in https://youtu.be/D8welP_QT2c?t=1396. It's hard to tell what's going on since I don't speak that language, but I noticed that the science packs were created with assembling machines instead of EMPs, so you lose all the innate prod bonus. I tried it in Helmmod myself and changing the machine to EMP immediately brings the number close to what YAFC-CE gives without modules: https://imgur.com/a/AAbcnKQ

In 24:10 of your video you did a recalculation for the cost of Bk247. I reproduced the calculation, then adjusted the machines & added prod modules. You can see the results: https://imgur.com/a/kVsRVzX

Modules definitely change the cost by several orders of magnitude.

@CPU_BlackHeart Thanks for the reply. Well, I really wasn't prepared for such an "adventure," and the mod decided to add it rather spontaneously after I'd already landed on the destroyed planet, so I didn't have much opportunity to properly prepare. And I couldn't have known what would be so critical to me before I reached the destroyed planet and did this research.

@zhuyifei1999 Don't pay attention to the calculations in the video. I made a mistake there, as I didn't account for the creation of the HEA-242 cell. However, thanks to your screenshots, I finally found the error in my new calculations, which means my new calculations seem to match yours. Now, I only got 10 million to create 10,000 cells, and using productivity, plus productivity in labs, I now only need 125k.

https://imgur.com/a/1ZU5TCv

Old calculations, if you're interested: https://imgur.com/a/zvqFtaf , https://imgur.com/a/vrhDIzU

Thanks for the help and interesting conversation!

Yep, 125k sounds about right. I got 126k for 8333 HEA science packs (20% prod in labs) in YAFC-CE. It's probably a rounding difference somewhere.