Hello,

I wanted to say that overall, this is a fun idea for a mod. The balance is currently a bit rough. I beat it, taking about 45 hours, which isn't horrendous for an overhaul mod, but it's probably going to be pretty beyond the expectations for a casual run. The real issue is that most of that time was spent just waiting for research, which comes at a fairly slow pace. That's honestly my biggest complaint, and while it could be self-inflicted, I don't think my approach to the challenge was sub-optimal. At most, I might have underestimated the scale required to handle the demands of every science pack requiring the previous one at a better pace.

I used a two-lane sushi belt, with mixed inputs from Iron Plates, Steel Plates, Stone Bricks, and coal controlled by their constituent letters (a single letter before combinators) and dedicated inputs for the other more special letters (Q's, X's, Z's handled by batch to get to logistics network). The end of the sushi belt hits a decompiler block that can handle the full double-belt throughput and whose output is prioritized over fresh input from raw resources. I don't see a faster method other than perhaps scaling up to a more robust (ie more lane) sushi base after oil processing. I more or less limped to the logistics network research, then replaced my entire base with a bot mall to get through the rest of the yellow science. After I got to that point, it was only a few more hours to beat the rest.

In my honest opinion, allowing the player to progress faster by removing the telescoping science pack requirement would shift the challenge to designing factories that produce the more exotic letters rather than being a test of patience due to low production rate with the early methods available.

Other than that, the number silo is bugged in a few ways. Enabling the "read working" circuit network option consistently crashes the game with a lua error. Additionally, when the script changes the recipe components, any numbers inserted into the silo that aren't also (by luck) part of the new ingredients are destroyed. I eventually devised a way that would achieve zero waste despite this issue, but it depends on the "read working" condition. I'm sure a method where you use a memory cell that resets after a delay could work too, but that's beside the point. If this is intended, then using informatron or the in-game tooltip to explain this behavior would be nice. It would also be nice if you could preserve productivity progress when manipulating the recipe-- or again, mention that the method you're using will break productivity, as the productivity progress resets every time the recipe rerolls.

Consider re-balancing exoskeletons to not require X's. Not having access to exos until practically the end of the game is rough. I take similar issue to nuclear power being locked behind X's capping your scale fairly hard, especially considering that the C's needed for high volume accumulator production compete with the ever-increasing demands for C's in red science packs.

Thank you for putting this mod out. It was an interesting challenge.

?!?! I am insanely impressed that you managed to beat the mod. I certainly didn't have the patience for it myself >w<

For the science packs, my intention was to ramp up the amount of common letters required as the game progresses. From your feedback, though, I can see that my goal really didn't work out if it just resulted in a lot of waiting, and kind of defeats the purpose of the mod, which is to explore how to get new letters.

Based on your experience with the mod, would it be better if all of the packs required just the red science pack, mirroring the advancement style of other items like inserters? Or would even that be too much, and I should just have it be the base word by itself as the recipe? Personally, I like the idea of using the red science packs, to intentionally maintain that C tension between science and accumulators, encouraging the transition to nuclear, but ultimately, you would know more about how that would play out.

With regards to the heat exchangers, by the way, that was intentional, but I didn't really think about how that would limit scale until you brought it up. My new plan is to have a "heat e-changer" (or something similar) unlock with the nuclear power research that works at 50% efficiency or something. Hopefully that will fix the issue.

This weekend, I'll look into fixing a lot of what you brought up. ESPECIALLY the number silo, which needs a lot of work. I'll also look into how to put information into the Informatron, since I honestly didn't think about it, and I think it would be really good for a lot of things (e.g. the changes to uranium).

Thank you for so much detailed feedback; I appreciate it more than I could say.

Based on your experience with the mod, would it be better if all of the packs required just the red science pack, mirroring the advancement style of other items like inserters? Or would even that be too much, and I should just have it be the base word by itself as the recipe? Personally, I like the idea of using the red science packs, to intentionally maintain that C tension between science and accumulators, encouraging the transition to nuclear, but ultimately, you would know more about how that would play out.

I think them all requiring the red pack would be a reasonable compromise. The central premise of the mod seems to steer the player towards a sushi design, at least before you get to logistics network, which is fine, but such designs tend to be rather chaotic and difficult to control. To expand my own anecdote slightly, in the early stages, I struggled to find a good limit value for unique letters of each of the chosen inputs. Too high and the input area flooded with letters and certain inputs never got a chance to actually place items on the belts. Too low and you leave gaps on the belts which means less production. In either case you're left with accepting declining science productivity on your existing design or re-designing your base after you set up oil refining. Both are unfortunate in their own ways. It just depends on what balance of challenge you want to be from slow research versus novel letter extraction methods. My preference would be to lean into the latter, but it's your vision, after all.

With regards to the heat exchangers, by the way, that was intentional, but I didn't really think about how that would limit scale until you brought it up. My new plan is to have a "heat e-changer" (or something similar) unlock with the nuclear power research that works at 50% efficiency or something. Hopefully that will fix the issue.

That could be a solution to the problem. Halving the efficiency still leaves a reason to want the real version in the future, but gives you a way to greatly increase power generation. I like this idea a lot.

EDIT: The exact efficiency might need tweaked from this. 50% might be too high. Even fully converted to the bot mall I beat the game with, my power needs only approached 300 MW. A 2x4 nuclear reactor that infinitely scraps and recycles its fuel cells had an overhead of about 40 MW, but produces around 1400 MW of power. Even at 50% there would be no need to ever upgrade to the improved exchangers. A value of 20-25% would mean you can at least duplicate your reactor design a few times if you need more than 300 MW, or you have the option to use X's to greatly boost efficiency of your existing design.

This weekend, I'll look into fixing a lot of what you brought up. ESPECIALLY the number silo, which needs a lot of work. I'll also look into how to put information into the Informatron, since I honestly didn't think about it, and I think it would be really good for a lot of things (e.g. the changes to uranium).

Thank you for so much detailed feedback; I appreciate it more than I could say.

No problem. Once again, this is a great idea for a mod. You should be proud.