WoodToOil deprecated


Wood can be produced and it can be used to create crude oil (in low amounts).

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23 days ago
1.1
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Fluids

i Conflicts of arborium machines and fertilizer items with other mods

4 years ago
(updated 4 years ago)

this is not really a bug, but causes problems when i want to include the mod in a bio/wood related modpack:

there is a mod "Arborium" that creates seeds and trees which then really can be planted to grow forests, and also generates wood. thus this mod would probably be really nice in combination with the Arborium mod. but since both mods have a machine with the same name "arborium", one mod (for me it is this mod, probably since A is alphabetically before W) overwrites the machine of the other mod :-(

the Arborium mod hasn't been updated for 0.18 (yet), but would it be possible for you (both authors) to find a solution how to avoid the conflict, maybe easiest by Arborium renaming the first arborium machine to include the "mk1" (since there are already two machines for mk2 and mk3 in that mod anyway)? but since any other future mods might also use a name like "arborium", maybe some different naming scheme for all mods would also be useful?

similar applies also to fertilizer, a rather generic name that may be used by other mods too, probably bio-industries and several others. it would be nice if all those mods would either use the same generic "noname" fertilizer and/or allow alternate recipes for the same endproduct (which would require balancing them with each other so that any fertilizer can be used in any mod, similar to solid fuel which can be made in vanilla with three different recipes, but also by other mods eg from tar), or change the generic fertilizer to some specific "brandname" fertilizer that doesn't conflict with the other fertilizers from other mods :-)

ps: currently i play a map with "fantario" which has no coal, but can easily generate large amounts of wood and coal with its own production chains. thus any mod that can make use of wood would be helpful for that combination too ...

edit: i just checked the recipes in this mod again, and found that you need some petrol/blue science first to research the crude oil recipe (and its prereq "vanilla Advanced oil processing"), and then some light oil to make the first crude oil from which THEN more light oil can be made. it would be nice if even in minor quantities, this mod could kickstart production without having to get some crude oil first (either because a map has the setting for crude oil turned off, or because the nearest crude oil is right below/behind a giant biter nest (as happened on my last map) and i would have needed better weapons/armor to fight my way to it which in turn would require oil production first :-(
to solve this problem, another mod could be used that produces petrol from wood (like Wood Gasification or Wood To Oil Processing), but the more mods i use, the bigger are chances for more conflicts between them (and yes, those two mods have a conflict and overwrite their recipes although one of them says that they "work together") and that their producton chains are not balanced with each other.
maybe you have an idea how to extend your mod to have the ability of kickstarting oil production without crude oil ? :-)

4 years ago
(updated 4 years ago)

thanks for your interest in the mod.

I shall try to answer problems separately, you have many different and separate points:
- Arborium mods are common, I know. the name is generic and everyone uses it but the problem I see is everyone has a different approach on game in terms of balance and their mindset. One modder might want their entity super duper powerful thing (center of the world) where as another one just introduces the entity to give alternates. I thought of second option here. Honestly if you have ways of producing wood then you should not download this mod because it might cause balance issues. I checked bobs mod and he produces large amount of wood in 5sec I guess where as my mod produces similar amount in 15 or 30sec and the speed cannot be improved at all. the difference is huge so it causes imbalance if you use different mods to give alternates. I already mentioned in desc, wood production is only there for using stone. in vanilla stone has almost no use. I have not thought of the recipes to be used very commonly with junction of other mods doing the same thing. such balance issues shall always come.
- Fertilizer or generic names shall always have a problem. there is no modder consortium to decide who uses what names on the items/entities. every modder is free to name stuff as they wish so this is very difficult to solve. brandname fertilizer is meaningless because it shall have same issue eventually. I dont want to use a brand name thing here.
- kickstarting oil production. this mod is not targeting "oil production", it is targeting "wood consumption" as an alternate for cracking heavy/light oil. it was never meant to be main source of oil. devs want players to go out and search for oil and that is why they do not put oil at start area. I want the mod to be aligned with this philosophy. it shall stay as a late process to get rid of accumulated wood or consume stone. I admit light oil requirement becomes weird now but the mod was designed before oil changed in 0.17 and light oil was a product of basic oil processing. similarly pickaxe was used in recipe of arborium but it is gone as well.

what I can do now and future:
.1 I shall put the wood production recipes and entities with a setting. they shall be activated when setting is true (by default is shall stay true). if you uncheck the setting then it shall not load those items/entities so mod shall become an option for producing oil from wood, as name indicates. nothing more nothing less.
.2 I shall try to rename stuff but why should I when other modders do not rename their stuff? this is a selfish ask. I shall try this approach with prefixes but if it causes issues about compatibility or migration then I shall skip this approach entirely.
.3 in future (when 1.0 is released), I shall separate wood production into a separate mod and link this to that mod as optional. again same danger is there, someone shall come up with fertilizer thing and he shall ask me to separate arborium and fertilizer. there is no end to this.

please suggest me recipe ideas about your edit, for example from petroleum to light oil? as I said oil is a big jump in factorio and also a challenge for players. I dont want to create a cheat mod to ruin the challenge for access to oil. I feel you about oil being behind biters or not existing. In the past I had issues with oil (spawning on water so not spawning at all which I realized it later) but still I want this mod not to be a main source of production line, just a support thing. I want this mod very similar to be coal liquefaction which is down the tech and requires heavy oil (from adv oil processing).

thanks for your good points. sorry for not providing a quick and ultimate solution. if you really want this mod immediately to be compatible with other stuff I can give a workaround mod zip file for your local game experience (disabling the wood related stuff is not difficult).

4 years ago

thanks for your fast and detailed answer

[arborium and fertilizer] the name is generic and everyone uses it but the problem I see is everyone has a different approach on game in terms of balance and their mindset.

i completely agree, and that of course causes problems. but depending on how the user wants to play, it should be left to him how "cheaty" he wants to play. to allow for a wide range of mods to be selected concurrtently or alternatively, having identical names imho should be done when some mods are intentionally made to be compatible and balanced with each other, and names should differ otherwise, to allow "mixing and merging" of mods without conflicts where one recipe might overwrite another and turn a simple QoL recipe into an overpowered recipe from the other mod, or disable a whole production chain because of some missing product.

I checked bobs mod ... my mod produces similar amount in 15 or 30sec ...

just for info: "Fantario" is a complete overhaul of Factorio which (as default setting) eliminates coal completely and you get a wood production instead with the ability to turn wood into coal. thus i already have big production facilities for wood and coal and wanted to extend that to oil too, playing on a "desert planet" with no wood or oil, having enough wood (and making enough coal) in the beginning, later have a second type of wood in addition to coal, and much later having coal liquefaction from all the wood/coal. but to go from early to midgame, this requires research of oil production and advanced oil production which in turn needs oil that i only would get from coal liquefaction after the oil reserach that requires oil. to break that circle, i was looking for a mod (or mods) that help break this circle, and this mod looked helpful to achieve part of that goal ...

  • Fertilizer or generic names shall always have a problem. ... brandname fertilizer is meaningless because it shall have same issue eventually ... [...] ...approach with prefixes ...

yes, prefixes was what i meant when speaking of "brandname fertilizer". this didn't refer to a reallife brand, but to your mod being the brand, using a prefix internally, or maybe even showing fertilizer as "WoTO fertilizer" ingame :-)

  • kickstarting oil production. this mod is not targeting "oil production", ...

see above ... i just was looking for ANY means to kickstart oil and advance from pre-bluescience to coal liquefaction.
there are other mods too, but none of them provides all parts of the solution (eg one provides wood->tar->heavy, another wood->petrol, and one makes crude from light, but none made light oil) and thus i tried to combine them somehow, with the best solution to only make petrol from wood, do lots of bluescience research and years later arrive at coal liquefaction :-)

devs want players to go out and search for oil and that is why they do not put oil at start area. I want the mod to be aligned with this philosophy.

this sounds very reasonable, but can be (and sometimes has to be) cheated :-) :-( by generating lots of maps with different parameters, eg the biggest starting area and frequent rich oil deposits. the devs and mapgeneration aren't perfect: while randomizing the seed, i even got several maps with uranium relatively near at my base while quite often oil was far behind biters, right under big biter towns, or sometimes not even shown at all on the preview map. with any unfriendly biters and their expansion, it can turn into a challenge even for experienced players to get to an oil deposit to harvest at least enough oil (defending a single pump and a barreler with a pistol) to get to red ammo and suitable suits and weapons fur further exploration.

I admit light oil requirement becomes weird now but the mod was designed before oil changed in 0.17 and light oil was a product of basic oil processing. similarly pickaxe was used in recipe of arborium but it is gone as well.

:-)
i started playing the game when it just went from 0.12 to 0.13, and now i want my pickaxe back ! :-)
on the other hand, I'm not sad at all to save the few seconds work to make a stack of pickaxes and then be able to forget about them (and the annoyance when i forgot to make them in time).

.1 ... wood production recipes and entities with a setting ... so mod shall become an option for producing oil from wood, as name indicates.

to avoid conflicts with arborium ? sounds fine to me.
i like to have lots of options to do one thing, but won't need wood production anyway (and even would use the arborium mod not for wood generation where i always ended up with too much of it, but use that mod only to generate seeds and plant forests for the nice looks and to reduce pollution :-) and thus in the end i only really need and use one alternative and mostly care about the aspect what this mod's name promises : "WoodToOil" :-)

.2 I shall try to rename stuff but why should I when other modders do not rename their stuff? ... I shall try this approach with prefixes but if it causes issues ...

sad but true ... most people wait for others to act, and i feel stupid myself when i think about how to avoid future problems in advance or do additional work because someone else doesn't do something.
in addition, things like prefixes of items or recipes may cause other problems like with those mods that automatically generate new items or recipes derived from the names of existing ones and that rely on items and recipes sharing the same name, often even localized names, etc etc.
thus i completely understand if it's no possible to do in the little time you have left if you want to still play yourself (not even speaking of time for RL duties :-)

.3 in future (when 1.0 is released), I shall separate wood production into a separate mod ...

sounds like the best method to separate a mod into separate mods depending on the purpose of some parts of them.
several big mods have done this (bobs, the plus suite, the picker suite, etc) and several mods have done the opposite, combining functions of different mods into one mod (the picker suite, etc), and some even annoyingly have introduced features on purpose that are unrelated to their mods, just to force players into a specific playstyle (eg AAI which is a vehicle driving and game scanning mod suite, disallowing to build anything near biters just to prevent turret creep).

please suggest me recipe ideas ... I want this mod not to be a main source of production line, just a support thing. I want this mod very similar to be coal liquefaction which is down the tech and requires heavy oil (from adv oil processing).

it's always difficult to find objective and neutral ideas when someone is involved in some current problems and wants a solution to exactly that problem. thus i don't want to lead you to some specific solution and only restate what i would like to see as the endresult : first of all any (maybe even very costly) temporary production of items/fluids that are needed for blue science and to get to coal liquefaction, and second any nice things that you come up with (using my surplus of wood)

sorry for not providing a quick and ultimate solution. if you really want this mod immediately ...

no problem at all. fantario is intended to be a complete overhaul and any additional mods that work together with it are a bonus. thus my original posting was primarily to notify you which problems (that many mods have, using non-unique names) may show up when using your mod together with other mods in some modpacks.
and if/while i have to wait for some more mods to be updated to 0.18 and wouldn't be able to continue my map, i can have some more attempts at the last missing achievements (the three speedruns for engines and for total time) :-) :-(

4 years ago

although I understand your perspective, I do not have a similar one.

about names: I checked and saw they are unique in mod, internal names have prefixes like "woodtooil-fertilizer". it should not cause problems with other mods. please tell me if you have encountered such a mod.

about recipe: this mod is not built to support an overhaul mod, its intention was never that. if it is working then it is coincidence and I am fine with that.

about wood production: since you are looking for alternatives, I was also looking for alternatives. I did not like other mods for producing wood and I made my own mod and put it into this mod.

about separating mods: this is sth I avoid because more mods means more effort to support at the same time. also things this mod provide are not super unrelated anyway.

I saw your comments and I think your have not played with the mod at all and you are just asking around. I cannot make assumptions on your play and neither it is my task to do. run the mods together and report issues otherwise I cannot make any act on possibilities. there are a lot of mods that shall help you to find out what is going to be bottlenecks for future (infinity, creative mod, RSO...) and also you can use console commands to see any inconsistencies in your map/tech/recipes etc.

final thing, if you are not satisfied with the recipes, you can change them freely in your local game.

4 years ago

first of all: it's always great to have nice mods, and when an author answers questions or suggestions. thanks!

although I understand your perspective, I do not have a similar one.

100 people, 101 perspectives :-)
and of course, this is YOUR mod.
i only tried to explain what i was trying to do/achieve with it or similar mods.

about names: they are unique in mod

GREAT ! many other mod authors use simple names and only make them unique if there are too many complaints. THANKS!

about recipe: this mod is not built to support an overhaul mod.
if it is working then it is coincidence and I am fine with that.

of course !
i expect overhauls to support only very few other mods if at all, mostly some QoL mods and utilities, like FNEI, max rate calculator, etc... every mod that works on an overhaul is a bonus, and it also easily can be "cheating" and reducing the intended experience.

about wood production: I did not like other mods for producing wood and I made my own ...

all the mods that i found for wood production, oil-production, etc have at least one nice feature, one not so nice feature (for MY purposes) and that's why i tried using several of them at the same time, which gives new problems. but those are only my problems, not yours when you wrote the mod for your goals.

about separating mods: sth I avoid ... more effort to support ...

i fully understand and agree. it's something you do in your time, are not paid for it, and offer it for general use.
if i see something i like, i want to use it, and when it has lots of different parts bundled together, it's always nice if i am able to select only some part of it, either when it comes as set of mods, or when there are mod options to enable or disable several parts of the mod. and even if there aren't, i still have the option to use all or nothing of YOUR mod in MY maps :-)

I saw your comments and I think your have not played with the mod at all and you are just asking around.

yes, i didn't try only your mod, but several mods with similar functionalities, and there are always problems with name conflicts, techs overwriting each other or similar. many mods have only short descriptions (if at all) with no details and thus it's hard to determine in advance which ones to use (together). i also want to do a complete playthrough and not first see some highlights, cheat some items to see the midgame/endgame, and then having lost interest in the early game with that set of mods. several times i did that, solved some puzzles how to set something up in the endgame, made blueprints for it, and then used completely different mods for the next map since i already had finished the map without really having started it. thus i am asking/describing a lot :-)

anyway, thanks for making mods at all, and for answering long posts and questions.

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